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By Kannan
#171064
Hello
I'm from Film industry. Am an end-user, so pardon my non-tech language. I need a certain requirement. I want to place multiple fixed-sensors inside a Film Set creating a non-geometrical Grid of app 60m x 60m x 30m. And using IMU sensors, calculate the Film Camera(s) movement and rotation (X,Y & Z) with in this Grid. It has to be sub-pixel accurate. Additionally I want to place multiple IMUs on 3 Actors (like Motion capture sensors) and need their relative "position & orientation" DATA in-respect to this Grid. Can anyone help me realize this please.

Kannan
kamal.61@gmail.com
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By Ross Robotics
#171094
Don't want much, eh? "Sub-pixel" could be anything.. For what your asking, off the top of my head, you are not going to get anything near what your asking from a DIY perspective.
By Mee_n_Mac
#171096
Kannan wrote:I want to place multiple fixed-sensors inside a Film Set creating a non-geometrical Grid of app 60m x 60m x 30m.
I don't understand what you mean by "non-geometric". Wouldn't you want a standard "geometric" (aka Cartesian) X, Y, Z grid ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_ ... ate_system
Kannan wrote:And using IMU sensors, calculate the Film Camera(s) movement and rotation (X,Y & Z) with in this Grid. It has to be sub-pixel accurate.
As already said "sub-pixel" isn't explicit enough. I'd need to know what sensor is being used, the focal length of the lens, and some other details to turn "sub-pixel" into a useful set of requirements for X, Y and Z positioning and (angular) orientation. But let me assume you want something very very very accurate. I don't think any IMU you could place on a person or camera will deliver that accuracy. Certainly not for longer than a few seconds as you film a scene.
Kannan wrote:Additionally I want to place multiple IMUs on 3 Actors (like Motion capture sensors) and need their relative "position & orientation" DATA in-respect to this Grid.
Where on a persons body do you want to place even a "perfect" IMU ? It can't capture the motion/position/orientation of all the parts of the actors body. Why use this method vs the traditional motion capture ?
By Kannan
#171112
I don't understand what you mean by "non-geometric". Wouldn't you want a standard "geometric" (aka Cartesian) X, Y, Z grid ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_ ... ate_system
I have to use VFX jargons now, pardon me please. The long-term issue of Digital Set extensions is the Film Set carpenters will not accurately transfer the scale of Live set, from the CAD drawings, so we have to so Lidar scan of the Live set, which data is HEAVY. So, by placing certain sensors ( what sensors I don't know !) on certain points of the Live set and get a rough but accurate 3d model, it will be easy to build accurate CGI extentions on top. That is why I mentioned non-geometric.
As already said "sub-pixel" isn't explicit enough. I'd need to know what sensor is being used, the focal length of the lens, and some other details to turn "sub-pixel" into a useful set of requirements for X, Y and Z positioning and (angular) orientation.


Focal length of the lens and distortions Lens creates are already in-corporated in Post production processes. Sub-pixel here means very very accurate. Yes.
But let me assume you want something very very very accurate. I don't think any IMU you could place on a person or camera will deliver that accuracy. Certainly not for longer than a few seconds as you film a scene.
Can you explain more here please.
Where on a persons body do you want to place even a "perfect" IMU ? It can't capture the motion/position/orientation of all the parts of the actors body. Why use this method vs the traditional motion capture ?
Traditional Motion capture are used to translate full body motion DATA but here I need motion data of certain part of the actor's body. The idea is to use actor's Face and expression, but use CGI costumes over his Live ones.

Thankyou.
By Mee_n_Mac
#171118
Kannan wrote:
But let me assume you want something very very very accurate. I don't think any IMU you could place on a person or camera will deliver that accuracy. Certainly not for longer than a few seconds as you film a scene.
Can you explain more here please.
An IMU doesn't output a position, it outputs (primarily) acceleration along 3 orthogonal axes. These can be numerically integrated to get a change in position (from the initial position). Basically the acceleration outputs are fed into that equation you learned in grade school;

distance traveled at time=t secs = 1/2 * acceleration (assumed to be constant) * t^2 + initial velocity * t = initial distance

In general and in your case acceleration is not constant but changes as time passes and so you estimate a solution to the above equation using a sample data system where the acceleration is measured every "dt" secs, where dt might range from 1/10secs to 1/500secs. In a perfect world this would work for you but there are (at least) 2 big problems using hobby grade IMU components. First is that these accelerometers have an offset, they output a non-zero acceleration even when not accelerating. And this output is not constant, it varies with time, temperature and movement in a not wholly predictable way. So as time passes a small error in acceleration leads to an ever increasing error in position estimation. Ever increasing means proportional to the accel error and proportional to the square of time.

Additionally these accelerometers measure the 1G force due to the Earth's gravity. That means with an otherwise perfect accelerometer, whose orientation wrt the Earth is known, you'll measure 1G of "acceleration" just as the IMU sits there, unmoving. Now since this is a constant, you can subtract 1G from the measured acceleration and be good. Alas in order to do that you need to know, EXACTLY, the orientation of the accelerometer wrt to the Earth. Any error in that angle means some small part of that 1G will be treated as subject acceleration and end up, just as the offset above did, as an error in the estimate of the subject's position. And 1G is generally a large value compared to a person's movements. A hobby grade IMU might give you an angle error of +/- 0.1 deg, if you're lucky. That's 0.0017G added (erroneously) to your subjects acceleration. That's about 2/3 inch after 1 sec, 5.5 feet after 10 secs and about 100 feet after 60 secs. While I don't know what "sub-pixel" accuracy is exactly, I figure 100' of error certainly ain't it. Nor is 5.5' or perhaps even 2/3". Nor is 0.1 deg of pointing error, all by itself.

And these are just 2 of the error sources. There's also limited bits of resolution, noise, gain error, non-linearity, non-orthogonality of axes, temperature sensitivity, etc, etc for accelerometers ... with some of the aforementioned being reducible via calibration, some not. And then you have to estimate the change in angular orientation of the IMU. That's done by integrating gyro outputs, which is similar to getting position from accelerometers and subject to a different though similar set of error sources.

This is why IMU's used for inertial navigation in planes cost 10's of K$s, those used in ICBM's even more. And you're not going to fit one of those to an actor.
By Mee_n_Mac
#171119
So if IMU's are out, what's in ? For position you might look into setting up your own local version of GPS. I know RTK GPS can achieve centimeter levels of accuracy. Something along those lines might suit your needs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Time_Kinematic
I don't know if portable versions are available yet, there were being developed a few years ago when I looked into such things.

Frankly it's hard to be some optical system for what I think you want.