SparkFun Forums

[propellanttech]

Thanks James, for the thorough heads up. It all sounds really good to me. Ill be prototyping my designs over the next month and will have a panel ready to go shortly after so get those doors open! If I have any more questions Ill let you know.

Brian

Brian,

We will get the doors open as soon as the dominoes fall into place. The process has been a steeper uphill battle than we ever expected.

For everyone,

Don't take silence as a bad indication, we are working behind the scenes to make everything work as smooth as possible. We do not have all the kinks worked out, and I'm sure we haven't hashed over all the different items. We will address different hurdles as we encounter them.


James L

[propellanttech]

Ok,

Another long awaited update on our status.

If you think this service will never open, well your wrong. We have spent a huge amount now....and have to get the work to pay for it.

The projected date is 5-7 weeks for opening (give or take a week).

The placement capabilities update.

I know a few people have been waiting on this information to decide if they will use the service.

These are the capabilities of the new pick and place:

Part abilities : 0201- 35mm (20 mil pitch minimum) 0201 components will be required to be on a full reel. Cut tape will not be accepted for 0201's.
Board Size : 2x2 - 8 7/8 x 11 inches (this will change very shortly to 10 x 13.5 inches for maximum size) Actually the new size should be in effect when we open.
Carriers : Tape, tube, tray (cut tape if not 0201)

We can place just about any part which meets these requirements, but will not charge for BGA type chip placement (board minimum still applies).

We will not have the equipment required to x-ray for BGA parts. We will mount them, but we can not guarantee their placement.


This is what we recommend. If your looking to use (or just try) our service (especially around our opening) you should stay tuned to our "news" page. We are pretty sure we will offer some ludicrous promotion to get the first customers to order.

If you can't wait.....you will be able to place an order after Feb. 22, 2008. Every order placed on or after that date will be treated as a real order.

If you must ask....yes you can start the process before we are officially open. We are already here......and having your items waiting on the first production day will put you in the front to have your items assembled.

[propellanttech]

I just put an Excel spreadsheet on the website to help customers figure out about how much a job would cost.

Here is the link. (you may want to right click and "save as").

http://www.lilbro.mosquito.net.nz/Board%20pricing.xls

Hope everyone likes the effort.

James L

[propellanttech]

Yet another update:

I thought of a problem with with multiple boards.

So I updated the Excel sheet to deal with that problem.

The current multi board pricing is to keep someone from sending a job with 30 different board layouts ......that would kill us time and money wise.

Got to predict the sneaky rascals out there.

James L

[Ampman]

I think you're making things more complicated than necessary. Some companies use simple formulas such as number of pads x cost per pad, plus some extra for large fpga-type (BGA?)

BTW your company could use this:

http://www.t-rexelectronics.com

[propellanttech]

I think you're making things more complicated than necessary. Some companies use simple formulas such as number of pads x cost per pad, plus some extra for large fpga-type (BGA?)

BTW your company could use this:

http://www.t-rexelectronics.com

Amp,

Very few companies do small runs for the prices we are offering (not in the United States anyway.)

Everything is simple until you start looking at doing it in massive quantities for other people, then all the little details start coming out.

Do you realize how much the software cost to convert gerbers to a stencil, or a placement program? Don't claim Eagle outputs the file....some people do not use Eagle. We have to provide for those that do not. Just for information.....the software can run from $995.00 to $8500.00, depending on how much work you want to do by hand. Those prices were quoted yesterday......

I know most people think it is a simple cut and dry operation. Trust me when I say.....it is not. We are trying to provide a service, everyone will want to use, then come back time and time again. We also have to make money at it as well.

Do you think someone having 100 boards assembled should pay the same rate as someone having 5 boards assembled. I don't think so.....because the 5 boards requires much more work (per board) than the run of 100. Also....there is more "down time" for 5 boards compared to 100.

Also most companies charge over $150 just for setup......so you can see why we are trying to give some flexibility.

We are trying to give flexibility to our prices, for people to have different options. We are attempting to make it easier for the customers.....they want to know how much their order will cost. Put the numbers in....get the totals out.

Yes....we will continue to change policy..... fine tune our pricing and process........that is progress.

We will give price breaks on orders we think deserve them. (Low part count). But it is hard to put that into the equation.

You assume everyone will order as you will (if you order), when we have to consider all the different options customers may want.

This is not complexity....this is the way customer service works.......being flexible, until you are not willing to bend any more. Your customers will decide if you are looking out for their best interests or only your own.

The storage system you linked is not the way we will handle the parts. The parts will remain in the boxes they are received in until they are assembled. The remaining parts will be returned to the customer (with their assembled boards), unless a request to retain is submitted. The items will be stored in the original box they were received in, until consumed (by that customers orders) or they are returned to the rightful owner.

No offense......just our view,

James L

[propellanttech]

Well .....one of our new toys arrived Friday.

We received our new reflow oven.

The arrival was not without incident. We have not completed the shops "driveway." This is mainly due to the very low volume of shipping and receiving we have done in the past.

The last few weeks have resembled monsoon season in a few countries. Our property is standing in 1-1.5 inches of water in some areas. Unluckily for the DHL delivery guy, one of those areas is located in front of the dock door of our shop.

He found how soft the terra firma was after we had unloaded the crate. He was not in a panic, but seemed very concerned that his van had became immobile in the marshy area. I braved the mud to connect a chain to the van and proceeded to pull it from the mud with my 4x4 Toyota. (4 wheel drive is a must around here)

The driver was very thankful, but I explained: If he was brave enough to back up to the door, I was brave enough to pull him out.

The new oven will make the maximum size board: 10 in x 13.5 in.

I've attached a picture for everyone to see.

James L

[hooziewhatsit]

More stuff to think about...

Will/can you do boards with components on both sides?

What about boards with footprints that aren't conducive to reflowing? (ie, improperly sized 0603 resistor footprints). With a proper relow oven, most everything should reflow.. however...

-Dave

[propellanttech]

More stuff to think about...

Will/can you do boards with components on both sides?

What about boards with footprints that aren't conducive to reflowing? (ie, improperly sized 0603 resistor footprints). With a proper relow oven, most everything should reflow.. however...

-Dave

Dave,

We do address the dual sided boards on our FAQ pages. At this point, we are not accepting dual sided boards for assembly. We will do one side, but really do not want to tackle both. This may change, but we want to test thoroughly before accepting any orders with components on two sides. This is mainly due to the new conveyor reflow oven. We do not know how well the parts will stay on while in motion.

I'm not sure I'm clear on the footprint issue. If my assumption is incorrect, please let me know the issue you have in mind.

I know people usually have footprints larger for hand soldering. We will accept a job with a larger footprint, but if it causes problems we will ask the customer to reduce the footprint to the manufacturers recommended size before reordering the job.

Over-sized footprints on passives like resistors (and capacitors) can cause tomb-stoning (raising to one end, rolling to one side, etc.)

We will fix them the first time, but we will expect the customer to fix the problem. If not, we will charge rework time the second go around.

Let me know if that covers your concerns,

James L

[smdFan]

Hi James,

For a long time, I had been searching for a reflow oven until I got mine. But I never encountered you reflow oven (VTA). What company makes/sell it? and how much does it cost?

Thank

Well .....one of our new toys arrived Friday.

We received our new reflow oven.

The arrival was not without incident. We have not completed the shops "driveway." This is mainly due to the very low volume of shipping and receiving we have done in the past.

The last few weeks have resembled monsoon season in a few countries. Our property is standing in 1-1.5 inches of water in some areas. Unluckily for the DHL delivery guy, one of those areas is located in front of the dock door of our shop.

He found how soft the terra firma was after we had unloaded the crate. He was not in a panic, but seemed very concerned that his van had became immobile in the marshy area. I braved the mud to connect a chain to the van and proceeded to pull it from the mud with my 4x4 Toyota. (4 wheel drive is a must around here)

The driver was very thankful, but I explained: If he was brave enough to back up to the door, I was brave enough to pull him out.

The new oven will make the maximum size board: 10 in x 13.5 in.

I've attached a picture for everyone to see.

James L

[propellanttech]

SMDfan,

The oven is made by VTA in China. I bought it and had it shipped air freight here. The price (even with shipping) was unbeatable.

It should be noted, the oven is 220 single phase. This is not the same as American voltage. I had to do something special to power it.

Hope that answers your question.

James L

[smdFan]

SMDfan,

The oven is made by VTA in China. I bought it and had it shipped air freight here. The price (even with shipping) was unbeatable.

It should be noted, the oven is 220 single phase. This is not the same as American voltage. I had to do something special to power it.

Hope that answers you question.

James L

Thanks for your response. But my questions were not answered. I was looking for a web address atleast. I could not find it by googling. Thanks

[propellanttech]

SMDfan,

http://www.vtasmt.com/

If that is what you were looking for.

James L

[propellanttech]

Our new panel cutter arrived today. We couldn't wait to test it out, so we grabbed an old board (design was out of date) and started slicing.

This thing is amazing. It's diamond blade went through the board with the greatest of ease. We couldn't stop, we sliced the board up into extremely small pieces. Via's, ground planes, through holes, none of these even seemed to make a difference. The blade just kept on cutting.

We are not sure how long a blade will last, but we believe it to be a while. We did order a spare for when the first blade is worn out.

For you panelizers out there, please remember the blade takes a 0.040 inch kerf when cutting. We have not measured this to be sure, but it is .020 -.040 taken away. We will be measuring this soon for everyone to know.

James L

[smdFan]

EDIT: I changed the name of the thread. Since this is an absolute now...and not a possibility.

If your interested, watch for threads with LB SMT in the title. /EDIT

I'm a new business owner (actually started it myself last year).

I'm looking to possibly offer surface part placement.

I'm wondering who would be interested.

I'm not sure of the rates.....but the way I'm looking at doing it is as follows:

There will be a setup fee for a new board design. (thinking about 10-15 bucks)

Placement fees will be according to pads. (certain price for each pad)

If the design changes (minor change....moved part, added part, removed part) there will be a small design change fee (this is based on previous orders)

I'm looking at people that will have small volume runs. 5-100 boards per run.

The problem.....it would be impossible to totally test the assembled board. Also....the parts would have to be supplied.

Let me know your ideas and opinions,

James L

Hi James,

When it comes to pricing, have you considered some sort of flat rate instead of per pin or pad? I wonder how that might work out.