SparkFun Forums

[funnynypd]

I knew mentor graphic PADs has a toolset to convert files from different vendors, but never see one myself.

[propellanttech]

Jason,

I appreciate the information....and think the PIK file may be of use.

I do not think you would have to re-orient all of the origins.

When we are starting up....I may ask for a pik file and a layout to see how the new machine deals with it.

Because this is new software, we are not sure exactly what will be required from the customer. I'm sure a top cream file (eagle) and some other gerbers will be necessary.

The procedure will smooth out after the first week or two. After we have learned what works the best (takes the least amount of time).

We will keep the forum updated on our status. I hope there are a few people interested in having their smt mounted.

I believe at this point our prices will be better than most companies out there. (In the US anyway).

James L

I could use some feedback on what software other people are using to design their boards.

I use Osmond PCB, for Macintosh. It produces standard Gerber files, including a solder paste layer (I normally send that off to Pololu to get a laser-cut mylar paste stencil made).

It also produces a file called PIK.TXT, containing pick-and-place data. Here's the first few lines from one:

Code: Select all

Designator	Part	Midx	Midy	Refx	Refy	Padx	Pady	TB	Rotation
U2	SOT23-6	0.963	1.231	0.963	1.231	0.963	1.231	Top	0.0
C1	0805	0.750	0.875	0.750	0.875	0.750	0.875	Top	-90.0

(the file is actually tab-delimited, it's probably not going to look too good here.) It seems like that would be exactly what you needed, except for one thing - many of the footprints in Osmond's libraries are defined with the origin at pin 1 rather than the center of the part, and I think it's the origin being reported here. I suspect I would have to fix that for every footprint I use before the file would be of any use to you.

[OT]

I have read this thread with interest, and although I must say have yet to make any devices that have not been hard wired, and surface mount devices is limited to breakout boards, this service together with batch pcb might be the push to needed to learn Eagle and get going. Would 20-28 pin QFNs represent any problem?
What about a design like this (gerber files for nRF24L01 module): http://www.nordicsemi.com/index_popup.c ... 9&prop=550

With no cutting services, what alternatives could be pointed to for small boards like that?

[propellanttech]

I should have stated (I forgot because it was talked about in private messages) the our service is going to provide panel cutting.

This allows our customers to supply panels (or array's) of boards and we will separate them after assembly.

QFN's should not present a problem. Only Ball arrays will present a problem. Ball arrays really require an X-ray to be positive all of their pads are soldered correctly.

Any chip mounting that can be visually inspected will be warrantied through our service.

I'm going to allow a sneak peak at our site. I want everyone to understand...it is not finished. I have been working hard to get everything worded right, and working to get the Database section worked out.

This should give people an idea of the service. If you spot something you do not understand.......send an email. It may help us find problems with the wording of the website.

http://www.lilbro.mosquito.net.nz/FAQ.html

James L

I have read this thread with interest, and although I must say have yet to make any devices that have not been hard wired, and surface mount devices is limited to breakout boards, this service together with batch pcb might be the push to needed to learn Eagle and get going. Would 20-28 pin QFNs represent any problem?
What about a design like this (gerber files for nRF24L01 module): http://www.nordicsemi.com/index_popup.c ... 9&prop=550

With no cutting services, what alternatives could be pointed to for small boards like that?

[jasonharper]

Took a look at your FAQ... your contact info shows an address in the USA, but your site has a .NZ domain, so I have to ask: What country would I be shipping parts to? What currency are your quoted prices in?

Also, what exactly are your requirements for fiducials? I found some info on the subject at http://www.tkb-4u.com/articles/other/fi ... ducial.php, which shows several commonly used shapes - are all of them compatible with your equipment?

[propellanttech]

Jason,

Yes I have an associate in New Zealand who is hosting the webpage for the moment. We will change to a dedicated server sometime next year. We want to get the service up and running before taking on another expense. (Even if it is a little one)

The address listed on our contact page will be the address all items will be shipped to.

The whole site is quoted in US Dollars.

All fiducials are recognized, but the circular one would be the best.

You can read all the guidelines for fiducial marks on the webpage you posted. Remember the mark is for a vision recognition system to calculate for board misalignment. All vision systems work the same.

As a minimum we require global fiducials. We recommend 3 (2 and an origin) to insure your parts are placed accurately. If you panelize (array), panel fiducials are not required.

The better you adhere to the guidelines the less amount of trouble you have.

If you use eagle....I'm sure you can search the internet and find fiducial marks for the library.

James L

Took a look at your FAQ... your contact info shows an address in the USA, but your site has a .NZ domain, so I have to ask: What country would I be shipping parts to? What currency are your quoted prices in?

Also, what exactly are your requirements for fiducials? I found some info on the subject at http://www.tkb-4u.com/articles/other/fi ... ducial.php, which shows several commonly used shapes - are all of them compatible with your equipment?

[busonerd]

James,

Just took a look at your site, You mention FPGA's as something you can't visually inspect, do you perhaps mean BGA / FBGA / FTBGA / CSP?

FPGA's are also a type of chip, and they come in PQFP packages too.

Cheers,

--David Carne

[propellanttech]

David,

I have been meaning to change that for a day or two.

Ball grid arrays are the ones impossible for us to inspect. (anyone reading, that doesn't know.....these chips require an x-ray to inspect)
I just haven't had the chance to change the website.

I just updated the FAQ for any chip with an underside array.

I think that will explain better.

But you did stump me on one type of chip. CSP? I don't think I know that format.

Thanks for the site inspection......it's nice knowing a person from Spark Fun looked.

James L

James,

Just took a look at your site, You mention FPGA's as something you can't visually inspect, do you perhaps mean BGA / FBGA / FTBGA / CSP?

FPGA's are also a type of chip, and they come in PQFP packages too.

Cheers,

--David Carne

[propellanttech]

We have been working on the website continuously since November the first.

Although not all of the functions work (web server permissions not correct) we have made a number of changes.

Our pricing is not set in stone, so browse by and give us some feedback.

Our schedule has been pushed back till January. But this is due to holidays.

Some of the people interested should recheck the site, and list their gripes and bitches here.

[propellanttech]

Just as an update.....we now have the webserver permissions fixed.

I would like for everyone who is interested to register as a user and play around in the protected area. Don't worry .....if you want to make a pretend order....that is ok for now. I'll kill all the accounts and orders before our business comes online for production.

If you have any questions...let me know.

I know there are some things missing, Like a page to tell the user what the order is going to cost before submitting it. I'm working on that part.

I'm also working on the registration page as well.......but you'll have to bear with me.......there is only so much time in the day.

James L

[propellanttech]

We have been working hard to get everything done.....

We have had some issues with our lending.....it plagued us for some time.......just the price of having a business.

We believe we have it all worked out.....so things are now moving forward again.

Also, we have added the Paypal payment option. If you desire to pay with a credit card or with your paypal account the option will be there.

We are not requiring a paypal account to pay.

We will also accept check and money orders, although that will delay your items being shipped out.

At some point next year, we will offer customer accounts to people who meet the requirements. There will be order requirements to receive a revolving account. These accounts will be billed monthly.....and will not require the customer to pay at the time of shipment.

The website does not reflect all the work we have been working on lately.

We will be accepting larger run of boards (over 100) but we will price these orders differently than smaller runs. They will be quoted at conception, based on the job criteria. We feel larger runs of boards should receive some breaks depending on the assembly requirements. Larger runs should be cheaper (per board) than orders under 100.

But if you think ordering 102 boards will give you a large break......we don't think that would really suffice for much of a break.

200-300 boards on the other hand will get a healthy break from the standard pricing.

We will try to keep everyone apprised on current events.

James L

[propellanttech]

Our financing looks as if the deal will close pretty soon.

There has been some relaxing on some of our requirements. We have decided to not require fiducials, but we do recommend them. Because we will have customers that would have difficulty putting fiducials on their boards, the requirement was going to cause problems.

We have also updated the FAQ about multiple design jobs. If your panel contains all the different boards (within our size requirements) you may submit a multiple board job. Multiple design jobs must be preapproved before job initiation.

We have updated the Status page about the Status definitions which have changed a little.

We are still doing the "test the website" for a while longer. We have not had many people get on and play.

We really want people to test the site out and see what they think. Don't worry......we are not holding people to their fux orders.

We will update the news page to reflect the webtest status.

James L

[b_w_]

James-

I am very excited by the potential of your service. I have been using BatchPCB for a couple years now but have always stuck to through hole components in my work. Your service will make many things easier and I will now be able to order a larger number of pcbs. Ive finally had some time to redesign a board using SMT parts. Ive gone through the steps to get it ready for your service and have a few questions/comments about it.

The site seems pretty limited at the moment and didnt allow for uploading files or providing an estimated price. I assume this is because the database isnt online yet. I did what I could and what it would let me do worked fine although it was a little touchy about me staying logged in.

The tutorial and various scripts could do with some streamlining. Something similar to how BatchPCB has you run 1 script and the CAM job. Combining the various scripts together somehow and modifying the CAM job to include the .pads file would make things a little smoother at the beginning.

I am a little unclear about the multiple design thing. My intention was to design up 2 maybe 3 small pcbs (the current one is under 1" square with only 54 pads) and arrange them as I could in the space I could work with in Eagle (havnt 'gone pro' yet) so that the file I send to Gold Phoenix would have 3 of pcb1, 1 of pcb2 and 1 of pcb3. After sending it off to Gold Phoenix they would panelize the various pcbs so that in the end I would have a full panel of say 27 of pcb1, 9 of pcb2, and 9 of pcb3.
--While I would have 1 panel, it seems that for your service I would submit 3 different sets of files corresponding to each separate pcb. Is that correct or would I somehow have to send you the file for the whole panel?
--Does this incure additional cost or setup charges for the 3 different pcbs in the single panel?
--Under my rough estimate I would have about 45 total individual boards, each well under 200 pads... does that mean I get stuck with a $450 bill or is there some price range between a quantity of 10 and a quantity of 50 or would 45 boards be 'close enough' to 50 to count?

Finally I guess the big question is when do you plan to throw open the doors? I understand a lot of chips have to fall into place but is there any chance you might be going by this upcoming March?

Thank you so much and I look forward to giving your service a shot.
Brian Evans
Cal State Long Beach

[propellanttech]

James-

I am very excited by the potential of your service. I have been using BatchPCB for a couple years now but have always stuck to through hole components in my work. Your service will make many things easier and I will now be able to order a larger number of pcbs. Ive finally had some time to redesign a board using SMT parts. Ive gone through the steps to get it ready for your service and have a few questions/comments about it.

The site seems pretty limited at the moment and didnt allow for uploading files or providing an estimated price. I assume this is because the database isnt online yet. I did what I could and what it would let me do worked fine although it was a little touchy about me staying logged in.

The tutorial and various scripts could do with some streamlining. Something similar to how BatchPCB has you run 1 script and the CAM job. Combining the various scripts together somehow and modifying the CAM job to include the .pads file would make things a little smoother at the beginning.

I am a little unclear about the multiple design thing. My intention was to design up 2 maybe 3 small pcbs (the current one is under 1" square with only 54 pads) and arrange them as I could in the space I could work with in Eagle (havnt 'gone pro' yet) so that the file I send to Gold Phoenix would have 3 of pcb1, 1 of pcb2 and 1 of pcb3. After sending it off to Gold Phoenix they would panelize the various pcbs so that in the end I would have a full panel of say 27 of pcb1, 9 of pcb2, and 9 of pcb3.
--While I would have 1 panel, it seems that for your service I would submit 3 different sets of files corresponding to each separate pcb. Is that correct or would I somehow have to send you the file for the whole panel?
--Does this incure additional cost or setup charges for the 3 different pcbs in the single panel?
--Under my rough estimate I would have about 45 total individual boards, each well under 200 pads... does that mean I get stuck with a $450 bill or is there some price range between a quantity of 10 and a quantity of 50 or would 45 boards be 'close enough' to 50 to count?

Finally I guess the big question is when do you plan to throw open the doors? I understand a lot of chips have to fall into place but is there any chance you might be going by this upcoming March?

Thank you so much and I look forward to giving your service a shot.
Brian Evans
Cal State Long Beach

Brian,

I'll try to answer your questions the best I can at this point. Because we are not up and running, some of the items you asked have not been totally addressed at this point.

The uploading of files is at a point to where we are divided about the proper procedure. For the moment....all files will be emailed to us directly. This is mainly because our forwarding bot has a mind of it's own. Also we are asking for much more than required at this point. We will trim the fat off the requirements after the first few months.

I haven't had any complaints about a user having problems with staying logged in. I'll check on that.

I was working on the dynamic pricing the last time I was working on the website. I haven't totally ironed out all of the bugs to the process. The website was put on the back burner to finish the expansion to the shop before the new equipment arrives.

We know the tutorials could use some streamlining. You are right on that count, and we will try to streamline the process further, but we just haven't had the time.

Theoretically, what you have listed would be three different jobs. Because the service is new, we will (for now) take it all as one job. Also.....try to make sure your panel is at a size we can deal with. (if it is oversized, we will cut the panels to a smaller group before proceeding if needed)

We have a specific size that is limited by our reflow oven. This will change in the future, but for now we are limited to 8 7/8 inches by 11 inches (225mm x 280mm).

There would be three set's of files, one set for each board layout. (this is the problem with the different boards on the same job #). But for now ....as long as the demand is low.....we will work with customers who want to roll multiple jobs into one. (We guarantee this will change eventually).

To answer your questions directly:
For now....you would only incur one setup fee for the whole job (we may extend your job numbering system for jobs like this 001A,001B,001C, etc).

You do not have to send the panel (matrix) layout. Just each individual board files. Please compress the files into a zip file. We are actually located real close to Nowhereville, Alabama.....and do not have high speed internet at this point. We will be installing satellite internet service in the first few months.

The price changes dynamically with the amount of boards ordered. Here is your breakdown.

$25.00 setup fee, $5.13 per board (minimum) or $0.03 per pad (if over 200)

Which totals up to : $255.85 (based on under 200 pads and not including shipping back to you).

I know this post has dragged on........

We are desperately trying to get everything done.......it has been like pushing chain, mainly because of the season.

We have a shop that is being expanded for the new machinery, working on the website, and doing a lot of dicussion with business owners about the service. It leaves little time for sleep.

We should be up and running by March of 08.

[b_w_]

Thanks James, for the thorough heads up. It all sounds really good to me. Ill be prototyping my designs over the next month and will have a panel ready to go shortly after so get those doors open! If I have any more questions Ill let you know.

Brian