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By jono
#179575
Hi!

I'm planning an arduino uno r3 controlled project involving something like a winch/lift. It should be able to lift and lower a weight of about 10kg (353 ounces) by winding up a wire on a roll with a radius of about 15 mm (0.6 inch.)
That gives me a reuired tourqe of about 208 oz/in, right?

What motor and motor shield would work for me?
Is there anything else I'll need besides the motor and the shield (and external power)?

If I missed some releveant info for this question left me know!

/JONO
By Mee_n_Mac
#179584
Your torque would just hold the weight against the force of gravity. It would neither go up nor down. Now you need to tell "us" how long the lift distance is and how quickly you want it to be raised.

You'll need some way to tell when the lift and/or drop is done. Do you care how fast the load is going when the drop finishes ? If so you may need some method of knowing when the drop is about to be done as well.
By jono
#179593
Hi,
Ah mixed up required torque with stall tourqe..
The weight is the max load to lift/lower, i might be able to reduce it by a counterweight.
the distance for the load to travel is about 19 inches. The time, well 2-3 seconds would be ideal but up to 5 might work.
When the load is close to the top I plan to use a spring/button combination to trigger a slowdown to standstill of the load.
Same thing for down.

How does a motor react to lowering a load btw? I'e torque in the same rotation as the motor is spinning, is that a problem?
By Mee_n_Mac
#179637
I'd had a semi-long post that got lost when I Iost my connection. When I get less PO'ed I'll retype it.

Let's assume (for the moment) that you turn on the motor to lift the load and leave it on, full blast, until just before the load hits the spring stop. You want to go ~19" (let's round that up to 20") in 2-3 secs. Let's call it 2 secs. So what kind of linear acceleration is required and what force is needed to do that ?

Time for another (semi-valid) assumption ... that is that the acceleration will be constant. It probably won't be but right now "we're" just trying to get close to see what kind of motor might be required. Given the load is starting w/zero velocity, the equation for distance vs time is :

D = 0.5 x A x t^2 ; D = distance = 20", A is the acceleration and t is the time it takes, 2 secs.

Re-arranging and solving for A :

A = 2D/(t^2) = 40/4 = 10 in/sec^2 or 25.4 cm/sec^2 or 0.254 m/sec^2

And the load will be going 20 in/sec when it hits the stops. Which sounds a bit fast.

So what kind of force is needed to make that happen ? Recall F(net) = m x A so :

F(net) = 10 kg * 0.254 m/sec^2 = 2.54 N net force

But you're fighting gravity to lift the load and the net force is the force exerted on the string - force of gravity. Just to hold the load against gravity you need 98.1 N, and so the string must exert 98.1 + 2.54 = 100.64 N. Let's just call it 100 N.

What kind of torque is then required at the shaft to do all this ? To exert 100 N of force at a distance of 15mm means :

T = F x radius x sin(angle) ; T being the torque, F being force and the angle being the angle between the applied force and the radius, 90 deg in this case.

That means the shaft torque needed is 100 N x 0.015 m = 1.5 N m.

It's also useful to figure out what RPM the shaft is turning after 2 secs. At 20 in/sec, that's ~ 50 cm/sec. The circumference of the 15 mm radius shaft is :

C = 2 x R x Pi ; so that's 2 x 1.5 cm x 3.14159 = 9.42 cm. To take up 50 cm it'll take 50/9.42 = 5.3 turns. And 5.3 turns/sec is 318.3 RPM. Let's call it 320 RPM.

So while the torque requirement sounds "high" to me (for a small motor), the RPM needed at the end of the lift sounds "low" and so some gear reduction from the motor to the shaft seems to be in order. The needed motor then torque goes down by the gear ratio and the RPM goes up. So a "high" RPM, "low" torque motor might work.

It's also useful to figure out the power needed to do the above. I'll leave it to you to look up the formula but given the above the shaft power, in watts, is 50W. And the motor power will be somewhat higher given the gear losses. And the input electrical power, which is what you need to supply, is even more. Given a 20% loss in the gearbox (SWAG !) and and 65% motor efficiency ... that means a 100W (peak) for the motor ! That's 10 A at 10 V and that's not a tiny hobby motor. :evil:

Of course a real DC motor (or stepper) has a torque vs RPM curve and so you won't get the above exactly. And you'll probably want to slow or turn off the motor so it's not hitting the spring stop so fast. Both of the above may tend to increase the lift time but that's why I choose to use 2 secs and 20" ... to be conservative.

Another question ... how were you planning to hold the load up, once lifted ? A brake of some sort ? A counter-weight will do but it doubles the mass to be accelerated, though gravity no longer fights you on the way up (nor helps on the way down but who cares about that !). Also a worm gear can give a high ratio and generally act as a locking mechanism. I'll leave the counter-weight calcs for you to do. Remember that we've neglected any frictional forces and had a constantly accelerating load. A load already accelerated up to speed needs less force/torque to hold that speed vs getting to it ... just like getting your car to 70 MPH. And taking longer would also mean less power needed.

So what motor and gear ratio might you choose ?

ps - I guess this post was more than semi long (enough). :mrgreen:
By Mee_n_Mac
#179643
FWIW you could also have approached this problem as a physics student, vs a mechanical engineer. That student would ask how much work (how much energy) would it take to lift a 10 kg mass straight up 0.5 m (~20") in a 1 G field ? He might have then asked how much power is needed to do it in 2 secs ? But that answer would be average power, which is useful but not as limiting as peak power. It also leaves the mass going 0 m/sec after the lift, which is desirable but doesn't (again) indicate the peak acceleration, nor the peak power, needed along the way.
By jono
#179652
--> Mee_n_Mac
First of all great answer, it was exactly the type of info I was hoping for.

Yeah, what motor and gear...Well now I know how to do the math... :)
The speed of ascent
Possible counterwieght
The radius of the wire roll
The required time to lift the load
Is all somewhat variable so I will have some option..



The exact motor is not yet decided but i see now that It would have to be something that packs somewhat of a punch.
10V 10A, hmmm I do have an old unused cordless powerdrill somewhere...

When i comes to the shield its all up to the power/current of the motor right?
What current should be accounted for? Current at engine stall?

I have considered a worm gear as it would provide locking, still deciding about that.
If I don't use a worm gear, I'll probably use some servos to engage a physical locking mechanism (a metal bar or something) to hold the load.
Unlocking might demand that I raise the load slightly before lowering it.
A break function might also be a solution, got lots of old bikeparts(discbreaks) to reuse. That would howerer demand me to provide force to simply hold it, wich seem unnessesary.

If i don't use a worm gear, I would probaly need some type of breaking to controll lowering the load right?
By Mee_n_Mac
#179656
First let me say that I think my calcs above are dependent on my understanding that a kg of weight is really 9.81 N of force here on the Earth's surface. So 1 kg of weight is also 1 kg of mass.

We've not talked about real life torque vs RPM curves. Depending on what the stated torque spec is (is it the max/stall torque or ???), the motor needed might be fairly large (like a drill).
http://www.robotshop.com/blog/en/how-do ... tions-3657
http://www.micromo.com/motor-calculations
http://lancet.mit.edu/motors/motors3.html
I'm working on a simple spreadsheet to simulate what happens when you use a simplistic torque curve, as described in the links above (still neglecting friction and armature inertia, etc, etc).

As for a shield, yes it all comes down to the motor and that depends on whether you add a counterweight. At a minimum you need an H bridge driver to be able to reverse the motor direction and/or short the motor terminals to provide an e-brake option.

FWIW a simple experiment w/a cordless drill would be very useful I think.
By Mee_n_Mac
#179673
The plot below is from the spreadsheet mentioned above. In it I played w/the stall torque and no load (max) RPM of a hypothetical gearmotor, eventually settling on 2.0 N m and 250 RPM to achieve a "reasonable" time to lift your 10 kg load vertically a distance of 0.5 m (~19+ in). The simulation predicts it gets there in 4.84 secs, going a bit over 0.1 m/s (~4"/sec). Such a gearmotor is not in SFE's stock and is about 20x more torquey than any gearmotor SFE sells.

I note that the ~1.5 N m torque arrived at above was too wimpy to get the job done in under 10 secs. So approximating the real life torque vs RPM as being constant is NOT a valid, or even close, approximation. I suspect the below is at least "in the ballpark".
(click on to open)
LiftPlotNoCWDist.jpg
So perhaps this is a lesson in why counterweights are used ? If I get a chance I'll see if I can plot that up too.

As assumed in all the posts above, there's no friction, no mass for the armature and cabling and a "straight line" model for the torque curve.
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By Mee_n_Mac
#179676
With a counterweight, gravity is no longer fighting the motor as it tries to winch up the load. Now just about any motor will work, all it has to do (neglecting friction, etc) is overcome the inertia of the load and counterweight. The load will continue to accelerate until it hits the stops (or in real life, the torque "matches" the friction forces). So leaving the no load RPM as it was (250), I reduced the stall torque of the gearmotor to 0.02 N m (100x reduction) and I see the load now getting to 0.5 m in 4.34 secs (but now going 2x as fast, 0.205 m/s, when it gets there). Good thing you can remove power and e-brake if needed. More importantly a peak (shaft) torque of 0.02 N m is ~2.8 oz-in, and there should be a motor that fits (or better) those specs.
(click on to open)
LiftPlotCWDist.jpg
ps - By using a counterweight, you can probably get by w/just an e-brake to hold the load in place.
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