SparkFun Forums

[OLIMEX]

Hi All,

Just to keep you updated we finish the tests for our ARM-USB-OCD JTAG last week and it works fine with the OpenOCD from Dominic.
We made it as 3-in-1 device as it offers JTAG debug with OpenOCD (soon C-SPY plug-in will be available for EW-ARM from IAR), more IDE vendors are welcome to support it.
It also creates RS232 virtual port which could be used as normal RS232 computer port when you debug your boards.
And the third function is to provide power supply which is jumper selectable 5VDC, 9VDC or 12VDC.
So hopefully it would solve the problems to all Notebook users which now have only USB ports.
The JTAG part supports targets with signals in range 2.0-5.0V (all ARMs currently on the market).

We are running production of the PCBs, plastic, etc and soon will have these devices in stock.

For the windows users we'll try to make Install pack for WinARM+OpenOCD, so not experienced users will be able to install everything (hopefully) trouble free. Any ideas and suggestions are welcome.

Best regards
Tsvetan

[mtuxpe]

Hi Tsvetan,
Any news about prices ?
Thanks

Hi All,

Just to keep you updated we finish the tests for our ARM-USB-OCD JTAG last week and it works fine with the OpenOCD from Dominic.
We made it as 3-in-1 device as it offers JTAG debug with OpenOCD (soon C-SPY plug-in will be available for EW-ARM from IAR), more IDE vendors are welcome to support it.
It also creates RS232 virtual port which could be used as normal RS232 computer port when you debug your boards.
And the third function is to provide power supply which is jumper selectable 5VDC, 9VDC or 12VDC.
So hopefully it would solve the problems to all Notebook users which now have only USB ports.
The JTAG part supports targets with signals in range 2.0-5.0V (all ARMs currently on the market).

We are running production of the PCBs, plastic, etc and soon will have these devices in stock.

For the windows users we'll try to make Install pack for WinARM+OpenOCD, so not experienced users will be able to install everything (hopefully) trouble free. Any ideas and suggestions are welcome.

Best regards
Tsvetan

[OLIMEX]

it's on our pricelist already - $69.95

Tsvetan

[AMONTEC]

For price sensitive USB JTAG interface, please checkout the Amontec JTAGkey Serie from:
http://www.amontec.com/jtagkey.shtml

[OLIMEX]

what a shameless plug
so you think that 140 EUR is good price?
what does your JTAGkey offers more than our 53 EUR ARM-USB-OCD?
does it provide additional virtual RS232 port?
can you use it as 5-9-12V power supply for your board?

Tsvetan

[Cannibal]

Does it support 'Release' mode in EWARM for the oki 5003 Olimex boards? I still haven't heard a peep out of olimex on how to make your code examples run in release mode.

[OLIMEX]

Does it support 'Release' mode in EWARM for the oki 5003 Olimex boards? I still haven't heard a peep out of olimex on how to make your code examples run in release mode.

the JTAG have nothing to do with the compiler options and settings, if your code works in Debug but doesn't work in Release mode the problems may be your code or your compiler/linker settings, read the EW-ARM help and user manuals and see what you are doing wrong.

Tsvetan

[Cannibal]

if your code works in Debug but doesn't work in Release mode the problems may be your code or your compiler/linker settings, read the EW-ARM help and user manuals and see what you are doing wrong.

Tsvetan

This problem is with the reference projects on the Olimex page , not my code or project settings.

[OLIMEX]

if your code works in Debug but doesn't work in Release mode the problems may be your code or your compiler/linker settings, read the EW-ARM help and user manuals and see what you are doing wrong.

Tsvetan

This problem is with the reference projects on the Olimex page , not my code or project settings.

the projects on our web are with settings for compile and execute in RAM.
this is because at the time we made them EWARM had no flash loader made for OKI 5003 internal flash write.
I think this is already fixed in the newer versions of EWARM.
Why you don't contact IAR if you have problems with EWARM? Their support is very good and they usually respond/fix problems in 24-48 hours.

Tsvetan

[Cannibal]

Why you don't contact IAR if you have problems with EWARM? Their support is very good and they usually respond/fix problems in 24-48 hours.

I tried, and found them to be far from on the ball: After telling them I was having an issue writing the flash of an Oki ML67Q5003, their 'tech' sent me a 'resolution' that was not only for the 4k series (workaround for the 4k's doesn't appear to work for the 5k's), but contained the term FWD: RE: AME-51 (a reference to a conversation between an oki tech and someone who asked IAR a similar question.)

After explaining 'that's not my board, or cpu, or question' a bewildered IAR fellow asked me if i had tried an intel non-extended hex file output.... I pointed him to the oki ISFP documentation and haven't heard from him in over a week.

I think this is already fixed in the newer versions of EWARM.

Version 4.31A is only a week old and doesn't seem to have a flash loader file for the 5000 series of oki cpus.

this is because at the time we made them EWARM had no flash loader made for OKI 5003 internal flash write.

They still don't, but it is possible to export a hex file from the linker that can be loaded via the oki made ISFP utility... the one you link to in freewings guide.

the projects on our web are with settings for compile and execute in RAM.

1 Olimex Oki MLQ65003 Cpu board - $120 USD
1 Olimex Header board for Oki Cpu board - $60 USD
1 Olimex ARM-JTAG connector for Oki Cpu Board -$20

Finding out that Olimex doesn't seem to be able to answer the question 'how do i use the flash on your fantastic contraption?'

Priceless




I don't know how others feel around here, but I've always found an operational example to be the most valuable tool when learning to use a new piece of equipment. A good example gives you a jumping off point, and something to build on, and can make the equipement a pleasure to learn. (I'm sure Everyone who uses the LPC series with the excellent eclipse guide will agree)

Not having rudimentary support from the people who make the equipment, or the reccomended IDE vendor is painful and upsetting.

[OLIMEX]

Why you don't contact IAR if you have problems with EWARM? Their support is very good and they usually respond/fix problems in 24-48 hours.

I tried, and found them to be far from on the ball: After telling them I was having an issue writing the flash of an Oki ML67Q5003, their 'tech' sent me a 'resolution' that was not only for the 4k series (workaround for the 4k's doesn't appear to work for the 5k's), but contained the term FWD: RE: AME-51 (a reference to a conversation between an oki tech and someone who asked IAR a similar question.)

what they do for their *customers* is 24-48 hours support and problem fixing, from what you are writing you are not their customer, but dowloaded their free kickstart, just imagine how many are the others like you (I guess many thousands) and I guess 99% beginners or peoples who have no glue for ARM programing think about it, why do you expect any support for something you didn't pay for? I've been withness to how for single customer who asking for help to move on new platform they do new flash loader and send update in couple of days.

1 Olimex Oki MLQ65003 Cpu board - $120 USD
1 Olimex Header board for Oki Cpu board - $60 USD
1 Olimex ARM-JTAG connector for Oki Cpu Board -$20

Finding out that Olimex doesn't seem to be able to answer the question 'how do i use the flash on your fantastic contraption?'

Priceless

I'm pretty much confident that our OKI board is the best value for the money you can get on the market, just compare this $180 to the $3000 OKI original development board which OKI sells and ask yourself if this is priceless or not. If you think paying $2800 for some more demo core justify this amount I'll seriously discuss with our engineering dept your proposal and we can make some demo code specially for you, and we can put some more efforts and write flash loader for EW-ARM (if you read the EW-ARM documentation there is explanation how to make one yourself it's not easy for beginner, but it's doable) just let me know if this is what you needand what you are ready to pay for

Best regards
Tsvetan

[Cannibal]

think about it, why do you expect any support for something you didn't pay for?

Because they claim that their products support the MCU, and that they support their products. The purpose of Kickstart is to convince people to eventually pay for the full version. I should think they would like to be told about inadequacies in their 'bait' before 'someone that matters' tries to use it.

I'm pretty much confident that our OKI board is the best value for the money you can get on the market

Well, now that you metion it, you can get a 32MB flash development cartridge for the Gameboy Advance (ARM7 with a colour LCD) here for $76 USD
http://www.jandaman.com/games.mvc?p=gba ... =GBADEVKIT

A Used Gameboy Advance from EBGames for $25 CDN (About $23 USD)
http://www.ebgames.com/search.asp?sortb ... ind=Search

And there's a *free* book on programming the GBA here
http://www.jharbour.com/gameboy/default.aspx

Also, you can pay $16 to get a great CD *full of source code and examples*. (Including some games! These must be a boon for anyone learning how to use the graphics or audio subsystems).

So to recap, the olimex solution is $180+20 (have to remember the JTAG cable that is extra from olimex, but included with the above GBA dev kit) while the GBA solution is about $115.

Granted there are tradeoffs, the gba is far more advanced for sound, video, and flash intensive apps, while the olimex board has a faster ARM core, has relays, more IO, and a funky green PCB.

If you think paying $2800 for some more demo core justify this amount I'll seriously discuss with our engineering dept

But the other guys only want $16

your proposal and we can make some demo code specially for you

I don't want demo code specially for me. I want demo code on your website that will let anyone who buys your product either burn their code into flash using the JTAG cable you sell, *or* for example, one of the existing projects to come with correct 'release' mode settings to build a valid hex image that can be uploaded with the Oki ISFP.


I'll tell you what Tsvetan, it's obvious we don't see eye to eye on this issue. I feel you should support your product with quality examples, you feel your customers should 'figure it out for themselves'.


I propose a challenge that will benefit all of your customers, and increase the usability and value of your oki solution: Each of us will try to be the first to produce a clear set of instructions on how to get your reccomended tools (IAR kickstart), with your reference code (Let's both work on the LCD code project, since a working LCD example can greatly speed further debugging), on your hardware (the oki board olimex sells).

The first person who produces clear instructions on how to achieve this will be the winner.

Should you win, I will gladly wear an olimex company shirt to work if you ship me one. (I am a B.Eng of electrical engineering, and currently work as a researcher in a Canadian University. The people around me will likely have an interest in who this 'olimex' is, and if you win, i'll have to tell them your products are well supported, since it will be true!)

Should I win, I want Olimex to promise me, and promise sparkfun, that by the end of 2006, you will have example IAR projects on your site, for every ARM product you sell, that work in both Ram+debug, and Flash+Release mode.


Think you're better than a punk kid? Prove it, and stand behind your products while doing it.

Of course i'll understand completely if you are unwilling to stand up to this challenge.

[Dominic]

Heh, sorry, but I couldn't resist:

You're comparing apples and oranges. The GBA is a consumer product manufactured for a mass market (therefor cheap). Yes, there are a lot of developers, and yes, they're sharing their experience, tools and software, but you don't pay for that - if you had to pay for it, you'd probably have to pay as much as for one of the vendor-supplied development kits (OKI, Atmel, whatever). Those that want to program a GBA are lucky that a third party is offering support for free.

Olimex is, in my opinion, mostly a PCB manufacturer. You could hardly build a prototype PCB yourself for the money Olimex charges you. They provide samples, which is nice, and it seems they worked for you in debug mode (unless I misunderstood something in your post - your demand for 'Release" mode suggested that). To me, that means there is no fundamental problem with their hardware or the code they supply.

What is left is a problem with your use of a software you didn't pay for, and which Olimex isn't responsible for. It's hardly fair to blame them for your issues with IAR, nor is it fair to demand support from IAR for something you didn't pay them for. Of course it would be nice, and one would think that IAR should be interested in solving problems with their software - but it might also be that their software works "in the usual case".

Regards,

Dominic

[Cannibal]

Of course it would be nice, and one would think that IAR should be interested in solving problems with their software - but it might also be that their software works "in the usual case".

You're quite right, and from my explorations so far, some (not all) issues can be caused by the compiler optimization settings, and having the provided projects set to 'maximum' optimization out of the box. Code that behaves well 'in the usual case' as you put it, can go off the rails if the compiler is then set to maximum speed/size savings.

They provide samples, which is nice, and it seems they worked for you in debug mode (unless I misunderstood something in your post - your demand for 'Release" mode suggested that). To me, that means there is no fundamental problem with their hardware or the code they supply.

Well, I have to say you're mostly right here. Yes, examples are nice, and debug mode does work very well

My request for release mode however is related to useful code: IE the supplied projects help with the basics of a valid c program for the embedded target. What they *don't* cover is how to burn code into the MCU in a permanent fashion, IE how to actually use the product, not just perpetually debug it. Since this product is billed as their 'top of the line' ARM platform, it's suspicious that there is no attempt at actually utilizing it's strength (specifically the 5003 is notable for a very generous amount of onboard flash).

Olimex is, in my opinion, mostly a PCB manufacturer. You could hardly build a prototype PCB yourself for the money Olimex charges you.

Never claimed I could, I simply claimed I could get more for my money. Heh.

You're comparing apples and oranges. The GBA is a consumer product manufactured for a mass market (therefor cheap).

Oh very true, but, remember my comment was in reply to Tsvetan's assertion that Olimex had *the best value for money on the market*, which is plainly wrong. Even way off the mark when you compare it to the GBA scene. Especially the DS model which comes with an ARM9 as well as an ARM7 and two screens for still less than the Olimex solution.

So yes Olimex, does have a good value, but on careful review, there is much better available

es, there are a lot of developers, and yes, they're sharing their experience, tools and software, but you don't pay for that - if you had to pay for it, you'd probably have to pay as much as for one of the vendor-supplied development kits (OKI, Atmel, whatever)

Well, there's a will and a wish about that that ties in with the above value assertions again. The value of a development platform is more than simply the sum of its components. It's also the ease with which it can be utilized, and the degree to which assistance is available. True, I didn't pay much for the olimex board compared to what the board costs direct from oki, but get this:

So far, of all of IAR, Olimex, and Oki Semiconductor, Oki and one of their engineers has been the most help in trying to get my hardware to work for me.... It was an Oki engineer who confirmed my suspicions about the optimizations in the IAR compiler

I mean that is above and beyond, an engineer taking time to help a guy who owns *one* chip worth a few dollars, on someone elses development board, with someone elses software! Claaaaasy

Contrast that with the IAR fumble (told me how to fix the wrong chip), and the way in which i've essentially been told to go choke on a "hotdog" by Tsvetan, and it really puts the relative reputability of the involved parties into perspective.

Those that want to program a GBA are lucky that a third party is offering support for free.

Far luckier than those of us who believe Olimex is capable of producing a single working IAR project.


Dominic, please do write back, since I find it reassuring to have another perspective on this, even if you are mostly supporting Olimex with your statements Please consider my counterpoints and get back to me.


And as for Tsvetan, have you decided so fast that Olimex is incapable of accomplishing this, or is it just unwilling to support its product?[/b]

[OLIMEX]

Oh very true, but, remember my comment was in reply to Tsvetan's assertion that Olimex had *the best value for money on the market*, which is plainly wrong.

please don't misinterprete and manipulate my post - read what I wrote:
"I'm pretty much confident that our OKI board is the best value for the money you can get on the market"

I wrote OKI board, if you say this is wrong let me know which else OKI chip based board offer more value for less money please?

the code on our web is provided "as is" to easy our customers, in matter of fact it's so simple and silly that it takes no more than few hours to write such code, the examples have been made on EW-ARM as we got free licensee from IAR and our peoples here like to work with it, well this may change soon when we are ready with WinARM/OpenOCD install package, probably we'll make all our future board examples on GCC + Eclipse/OpenOCD

I like your social engineering approach(yeah are capable of...?), if I was 18 years old I probably would bite, but unfortunately I'm not kid now and I know very well what we are capable of and don't think I need to prove it to you.
Someone tomorrow will reqest code which works on Keil or Realview. Not big deal really when you work in C but from your posts it seems like you are looking more for someone to do your homework, instead to try to solve this simple challenge yourself?

Best regards
Tsvetan